"Off-season" consecutive nights stay limit at campgrounds?

[bergman]

There are no restrictions before June1 and after Labor Day. Should there be a 7 (consecutive) night limit in the off-season?

If so, should it only apply to those campgrounds that have shelters? If that were the case, should it only apply to those "shelter" campgrounds that have less than 8 shelters? (exempting Daisy Farm, Washington Creek, Rock Harbor and Three Mile) Less than 6 shelters? (further exempting Belle Isle, McCargoe Cove, and Moskey Basin).

In September, Chippewa can be a very popular place, and it can be tough to get one of the 4 shelters.

[Tom]

I'm of the opinion that visitor levels are noticably lower during those times, and so any consecutive night limits applied may not really have any significant impact. In addition, given lower staffing levels, I'm not sure who might enforce them, and if there is nobody to enforce, it could become a "what's the point" battle. I also figure no matter what the season, shelters are a 'bonus' and not guaranteed. Chippewa can be busy all season long, since it's also popular with boaters. (On that note, does the 'two shelters reserved for boaters until x time' still apply? I don't recall the signs last time...)

I guess I'm also a bit sensitive/aware for those of us who occasionally visit during those seasons, many of us have met the dedicated group of retiree campers that visit each spring and fall, and basecamp at sites that the Voyageur can taxi them to. They'll spend a week or week and a half at one camp (or longer), then perhaps ferry around to the other side, etc.
Their legs might not be able to get themselves over every root and trail anymore, but they've been coming up so long, and maintained those freindships and dedication to the island, that they're not going to let anything but death stop them. (And, unfortunately, one of those friends passed away this past year, if you saw the forum post.) They also happen to be amazing ambassadors of the island (for this particular group, at least) with a wealth of knowledge to be shared.

Provided rules don't change, I don't doubt that a new generation of us campers, active on this forum, might not follow their lead into our retirement. (Which, regretfully, is still many years off, for me... )

[bergman]

Some good points. Did I forget to mention the proposed new rule's sunset provision, namely the date of my own retirement?

Seriously though. Let's assume I have a heart condition (gotta take it really slow on any portage) and a torn shoulder ligament that refuses to heal. How would kayakers feel if I set up shop solo for 10 days straight (beginning on Saturday of Labor Day weekend) at one of the 2 Duncan Bay shelters? In no way should I feel somewhat guilty that I'm being selfish?

[Nym90]

Is this a problem that you and others have encountered? I agree that in theory this change may be useful to consider if the current policy begins to be abused, but so far I don't see any evidence that it's warranted.

If it were to become a problem, I would much prefer to see more shelters or tent sites added rather than restricting the number of nights one can spend in a campground.

A possible compromise would be to extend the summer restrictions to shelters only in the off season, while still allowing an unlimited length of stay in tent sites.

As an aside, I seem to recall having previously seen reference to a limit on the total number of nights one can spend in the entire park in one season, though I don't remember the details at the moment, or where I saw it. I doubt it's very often (if ever) enforced, but it could be used to boot someone who, for example, decided to spend nearly two months at the one shelter at Todd Harbor, which one could otherwise theoretically continuously occupy from the Saturday of Labor Day weekend until October 31 if one had one's own boat to get them off of the island that day.

[Tom]

In no way should I feel somewhat guilty that I'm being selfish?

Well, if it's not against the rules, one shouldn't feel guilty. But to be perfectly honest, I was born and raised in Minnesota. It's in my nature and genetics to feel guilty by any or all of the following:
-Passing someone on a trail.
-Taking a shelter, if someone more senior in years to me, or female, has to use a tent. Even if they arrived to camp at 9pm.
-Adding to foul odors in the biffy.
-Cooking food that smells good to other campers.
-Not offering to filter water for the entire campground.

That aside, I do think there is a "culture" on Isle Royale that has, subtlety, established commonly accepted norms and accepted behavior. If people could recognize you had a health condition, I don't think anyone would have issue with it. If you were perfectly healthy, you COULD stay for ten days, but I don't know if you WOULD. The folks that revisit and keep coming back have discovered this brotherhood/mutual kindness and have somewhat 'self patrolled' the Isle into being a place that is very different from many other parks. Even the person who DOES stay for ten days is likely to wish to share his or her site, especially when the weather turns foul. Call it a vibe, but you can very often pick out the folks in the camp that have been to the Isle before, and those that have not. Just another part of what I love about Isle Royale!

[bergman]

I do appreciate and respect the notion that the community of visitors has self-patrolled the park. I like that idea.

It's also true that one should never count on or expect to get a shelter. However, i see chippewa harbor as a unique outpost, given its incredible beauty, the great view from any of the 4 shelters, the fact that the individual tent sites do not share anything of that view (as far as i know, i can't say i've ever walked back to one of them), and there is only 2 individual and 1 group tent site.

Somehow I feel that everyone should have a decent shot at staying in "a room [shelter] with a view". Backpackers have to bust their butt to get there, and typically only stay for 1 or 2 nites (regardless of the season) before heading back out on the Indian Portage Trail.

My thought is that Chippewa should have a 7 nite limit during the month of September only. (The regular 3-nite limit would still run thru Labor Day).

The dedicated veterans of the isle could take the Voyageur down to Malone Bay (after 7 nites at Chip, assuming the V-2 schedule aligns with my idea; it appears that it does, although after sept 15 this year, thursday is the only inbound trip), and relax there for another stretch of time before heading for home. The problem with that idea, though, is that the boat dock at Malone is quite a distance from the shelters, making it tough to carry gear to the shelters (and then they have to tote it back to the dock again).

Be advised that if u ever do come across a shelter occupied by a party of 1 - Berg (from Weston WI), and want to join me for the night (regardless of the # in your party; regardless of weather), or u need some extra storage space for gear, by all means, feel free to do so, even if you are a Minnesotan. It doesn't matter if I am around; I often return to camp after sunset. Just throw all my "junk" atop my sleeping bag and space blanket. And as Tom would say: "Leave the light on for me."

[bergman]

Due to regular typical weather (lake conditions), the voyageur's last date for pick-ups on the north shore (mc cove & belle isle) is saturday, sept 14. That means if the old veterans are on the north shore in september, they have no choice but to leave sept 14, which "places" them at RH, daisy, chippewa, malone or windigo for the balance of an extended stay. Chippewa is the obvious choice.

I like the idea of avoiding a new rule. I dont think lack of staff to enforce the new rule is a real issue. I believe that most visitors to the park police themselves, as far as consecutive night limits. Certainly, the veterans of the island would respect and follow the new rule, without the need for any monitoring by park staff.

Just like people voted on their favorite TR of 2012, i think we should have a forum referendum on my proposed 7 consecutive nite shelter occupancy limit, specific to chippewa harbor only. If someone is capable of walking the trail from the chippewa dock to any of the 4 shelters, then they are also quite capable of pitching a tent at one of the individual sites for a night or two. They would then be free to reoccupy one of the shelters, assuming there is "room at the inn".

The self-imposed penalty for willful violation of the informal rule will be having to land a 30+" northern pike bare-handed. I'm sure one of the boaters has a decent 1st aid kit.

Just as an aside, does anyone else have a sibling that is a nurse (or doctor), but can never be counted on to put together even the most basic of 1st aid kits?

[Capt Don]

How often are all shelters occupied for over 7 straight days? Probably never, I see no reason for such frivalous rules or even worrying about them. If anything the park should consider relaxing the limits during the high season, it really forces some older or less energetic visitors into the early and late seasons, thereby reducing visitor opportunities. The few people that come to the park in the late season and spend multiple nights at the same camp are usually alone and the ones I know would welcome company if there were no available spots. I know for a fact that you could spend as many nights as you wanted at the campground of your choice if you got yourself to the park around the 15th of April or mid October. Even in May the possibility of finding no shelter for weeks on end is not a reality now or into the forseeable future given the declining visitor numbers during the early and late portions of the season.

[bergman]

Out of simple respect for the time and energy I spent composing the original and subsequent posts, I would think you would read the entire thread b4 referring to my idea as frivolous.

The proposed 7 day self-governing rule is specific to Chippewa only, and specific to the month of September only.

Though I certainly appreciate your insights as to the season in general.

[johnhens]

I'm of the opinion that visitor levels are noticably lower during those times, and so any consecutive night limits applied may not really have any significant impact. In addition, given lower staffing levels, I'm not sure who might enforce them, and if there is nobody to enforce, it could become a "what's the point" battle. I also figure no matter what the season, shelters are a 'bonus' and not guaranteed. Chippewa can be busy all season long, since it's also popular with boaters. (On that note, does the 'two shelters reserved for boaters until x time' still apply? I don't recall the signs last time...)

I guess I'm also a bit sensitive/aware for those of us who occasionally visit during those seasons, many of us have met the dedicated group of retiree campers that visit each spring and fall, and basecamp at sites that the Voyageur can taxi them to. They'll spend a week or week and a half at one camp (or longer), then perhaps ferry around to the other side, etc.
Their legs might not be able to get themselves over every root and trail anymore, but they've been coming up so long, and maintained those freindships and dedication to the island, that they're not going to let anything but death stop them. (And, unfortunately, one of those friends passed away this past year, if you saw the forum post.) They also happen to be amazing ambassadors of the island (for this particular group, at least) with a wealth of knowledge to be shared.

Provided rules don't change, I don't doubt that a new generation of us campers, active on this forum, might not follow their lead into our retirement. (Which, regretfully, is still many years off, for me... )

Thanks Tom!!

[johnhens]

I spent time talking to a couple of older gentleman this past weekend at Canoecopia. Both were lifetime visitors to IR. One of them we had the pleasure to spend time with on IR. We were happy to portage his kayak into Siskiwit Lake so that he could paddle there while basecamping at Malone, and back when it came time to leave. I enjoyed hearing of his adventures on IR as a young man. He recently had surgery and was not sure he would be able to return to IR. This he told me with a tear in his eye as well as mine.

As Tom mentioned above, these folks have been coming to IR for a long time and have certainly earned the right IMO, to stay at Chippewa or anywhere else as time allows them to.

[Capt Don]

.....

[Capt Don]

Out of simple respect for the time and energy I spent composing the original and subsequent posts, I would think you would read the entire thread b4 referring to my idea as frivolous.

The proposed 7 day self-governing rule is specific to Chippewa only, and specific to the month of September only.

Though I certainly appreciate your insights as to the season in general.

I did read the entire thread and was not specifying your idea as frivolous, but rather rules of this type in general. I meant no disrespect, and please take no offense to this but I believe respect is given once earned. I feel we have quite enough rules regarding park use and those rules seem to work pretty well given the smiles and stories I hear from the vast majority of visitors. As far as Chippewa in September, I see no reason to single that location out, if it is occupied take that as an opportunity to find that new favorite place.