Venture crew group trip

[Kees]

Hello everyone and congratulations on having such a friendly informative site!

I hope you can help me, I work with a co-ed Scout Venture crew here in MO. We have done several backpacking trips (70-100 miles) and Boundary water trips (75+ miles) but we wanted something different for next year. Isle Royal was the pick. Unfortunately we have zero experience for this area.

We know we have to use group sites and the permit process locks us in to the sites and limits the options. I have no Idea what would be a good route? Looking at anywhere from 5-10 miles a day, could do more if needed, but have seen from this site you really want down time in camp to enjoy the scenery. Also looking at 4 or 6 nights on the island as we are also going to do some of the other things in the UP, Pictured Rocks kayaking, mine tour, and Mackinac etc.

We were looking at the Ranger 3 to get out but travel days might mean we need to take one of the other ferry’s back. We don’t need to end were we start on the ilsand, or could reverse this if it is a better hike. We don’t mind going off the beaten path.

We have not nailed down a date yet but the end/mid of June to first part of July looks to be the best time for all us.

Thanks for all your help,

[Tom]

Welcome!
The Greenstone Ridge is the dominate ridge trail on the island; it's also very common to be used by scout groups looking to get their 50-miler, as that can be accomplished with a little side trail action. It's also group friendly. (On Isle Royale, groups are 7-10 campers.) If you're looking to add a few miles, some will add a part of the Feldtmann Loop.
There is another ridge trail, the Minong, but that is not open to groups. (Well, technically it is, if you somehow decided 23.5 miles of some of the ruggedest trail in the upper Midwest was a good idea to cover in a day.)
You'll want to look up the Voyageur II schedule, as that's the ferry that circumnavigates the island and can get you back from the other side, or get you there to start - It all depends on how your days may schedule out.
Good luck in the planning! We're here to help!

[dcclark]

Hi Kees, and welcome to the forums! Many scout groups visit the island each year, so you can likely find some of their itineraries in the Trip Reports on this forum, or otherwise by googling around. I'll let others suggest routes, since I'm not as familiar with which campgrounds have good group sites. I agree with the 5-10 mile per day goal, and the desirability of down time. It's well worth setting aside time to sit on the dock, pump water, chat, and enjoy the scenery (and/or go swimming, although in June or early July the lake will be quite cold!).

You mentioned arriving and departing by different ferries. This is very hard to manage, because no two of the ferries will return you to the same place, or even close. Public transportation, Uber, etc. don't really exist in those areas or aren't reliable, especially for large groups. By far your best choice is to use the same ferry there and back. The Queen 4 (running out of Copper Harbor, MI) runs almost daily, unlike the Ranger (from Houghton, MI) or Voyageur (which is out of Minnesota). That said, the Voyageur circumnavigates the island over the course of two days, which allows you to be dropped off and picked up at different locations by the same ferry -- you just have to be careful to align your plans with the Voyageur's schedule.

[torpified]

Hi, Kees, and three cheers for co-ed Scout groups!

The Greenstone (the park newspaper; a .pdf is posted somewhere on this forum) will tell you which campgrounds have group sites. It looks like Rock Harbor, 3 Mile, Daisy Farm, both Chickenbones, McCargo, Moskey, and Lake Richie all do. That makes putting together some sort of east side meander an option. For my money, that would be more interesting (and logistically simpler) than charging across the island on the Greenstone Ridge Trail.

A possible 6 night itinerary hitting a lot of highlights (others will have their favorites to suggest; the thing to remember is that you can't go wrong):

Day 0: ferry to Rock Harbor, set up camp at Rock Harbor, explore.

Day 1: Daisy Farm (7.1 miles).

Day 2: McCargoe (8.2/ 9.7, depending on whether or not you go by way of the fire tower). Go by way of the fire tower, if you've go the energy! At McCargoe, check out the Minong Mine (a little over a mile from camp), to practice for your UP mine tour.

Day 3: Moskey Basin (8.4 miles).

Day 4: 3 mile (8.3)

Day 5: RH (2.7), with more time to explore. (The canoe/hike to Lookout Louise is very fun.)

[torpified]

totally off-topic rant: I quit the girl scouts the very week that, while they were building rockets in my brother's cub scout troop, my troop was being instructed by somebody named Wendy Ward in the proper technique for filing our nails. We were even issued emery boards in vinyl carrying cases sporting the girl scouts logo.

[Kees]

thank you all for the input, now for the Stupid Questions;

-Is there that much to do at RH, I guessed they just had a store and ranger station, what all can be done there. The Greenstone does not show much for this. (is it worth spending two half days there?)

-Torpified, do you recommend these group sites or was it just averaging days? Are there any groups sites that are just not worth staying at? I was looking at changing the 9.7m day, so we would have more time at the mine and fire watch.

-If we had more then 10 from our crew that would like to go, but not enough for another group, could they work on their own itinerary individuals 2-4 people, what if we overlap camp sites. Will they shoot us at sunrise?

-We are usually walking out of camp at first sunlight to get spots are our next camp when backpacking. With the group permit, we plan our camps and days and they are reserved for us then? We have not done the NPS group reservations system before.

-Any recommendations for places to camp at Copper Harbor the night before we put out, we sometimes stay a churches or armory's to keep the cost down. (with 5 day plan guess we could do Ranger 3 also with Tues to Sat, it puts to RH one day and leaves the next, places to stay at Houghton?)

Again thanks!

[dcclark]

-Is there that much to do at RH, I guessed they just had a store and ranger station, what all can be done there. The Greenstone does not show much for this. (is it worth spending two half days there?)

Definitely worth it. The Stoll Trail (out on Scoville point, starting at Rock Harbor) is a 4-ish mile hike that covers lots of different terrain. It has panoramic views of Lake Superior and other islands and points. Lots of interesting rock formations to climb over and explore, too.

Also, as Torpified mentioned, you can either day hike (long) or rent canoes and go to Lookout Louise, across Tobin Harbor.

-Any recommendations for places to camp at Copper Harbor the night before we put out, we sometimes stay a churches or armory's to keep the cost down. (with 5 day plan guess we could do Ranger 3 also with Tues to Sat, it puts to RH one day and leaves the next, places to stay at Houghton?)

The usual camping place near Copper Harbor is Fort Wilkins State Park, which is just a couple of miles down the road. You'd have to pay the usual registration fees (looks like about $25), but you could probably fit everyone into 1 or 2 sites at most.

If you end up using the Ranger, try the Hancock City Campground, which is $15/site and is also just a few miles away from the Ranger's port. Warning though, many of their tent sites are fairly small.

No clue about churches, although that could be possible -- there are a lot around there.

[Ingo]

-Is there that much to do at RH, I guessed they just had a store and ranger station, what all can be done there. The Greenstone does not show much for this. (is it worth spending two half days there?)

The 4-ish mile round trip hike to Scoville Pt is perhaps the prettiest on the island. A must do for me, anytime in R.H. Presuming the lodge is open, you can rent canoes and paddle Tobin Harbor, or over to Hidden Lake and hike up to Lookout Louise (as Torpified mentioned). Don't know if they'd do a group discount or not.

-If we had more then 10 from our crew that would like to go, but not enough for another group, could they work on their own itinerary individuals 2-4 people, what if we overlap camp sites. Will they shoot us at sunrise?

It would need to be 2 separate groups with 2 separate non-overlapping itineraries. My understanding is that yes, you will be shot at sunrise if you violate those rules . Seriously, they do take it seriously. They don't want larger groups meeting up. Not sure exactly how that works with a "group" > 6 and a "non-group" <=6, but I would save the story sharing for the end of the trip in any case.

-We are usually walking out of camp at first sunlight to get spots are our next camp when backpacking. With the group permit, we plan our camps and days and they are reserved for us then? We have not done the NPS group reservations system before.

You'll be guaranteed a group site, but not a specific one. So if there's 3 group sites and you get there first, you get your choice of the 3. I haven't explored them enough to know whether there's that much difference, but probably depends on the campground.

-Any recommendations for places to camp at Copper Harbor the night before we put out, we sometimes stay a churches or armory's to keep the cost down. (with 5 day plan guess we could do Ranger 3 also with Tues to Sat, it puts to RH one day and leaves the next, places to stay at Houghton?)

Fort Wilkins State Park is very close/convenient. Not sure if they have group sites or not.

[Bobcat1]

I can address some of your questions. Camping at Copper Harbor - Ft. Wilkins State Park is close by. There is a municipal campground in Houghton/Hancock that I have stayed at when taking the Ranger III from Houghton. Plus Houghton/Hancock has a lot of churches.
With a group permit, your campsites are reserved each night.

If you have 11-12, you could split into two separate "individual" parties of 6 or less. 13 = 1 party, 1 group (6 and 7). 14-20 = 2 groups. if you do split into two patrols, they have to be completely separate itineraries. You have to be at different campgrounds each night, and do not congregate at a trail junction for lunch or anything like that. I have seen rangers make a group pack up and move on because of this, an extended family that had 11 people in 11 kayaks and was trying to stay all together on two "individual" permits. This is to preserve the tranquility for all visitors and to manage the human impact, so please, no cheating. Two patrols might give you a good opportunity to have a patrol that hikes further and a patrol that takes in shorter days and spends more time each day exploring, or something like that. Your Venture unit would then have the experience of more of the island than one group could possibly see during that timeframe. You could probably get away with having both patrols in Rock Harbor your last night if your ferry is a morning departure(Ranger III or Voyageur), but stay separate, minimize the socializing and keep a low profile (be quiet!!).

As far as what to do in Rock Harbor, the Scoville Point Trail is awesome. Allow at least 3 hours and enjoy. This 4-mile trail made it into the "top 100 miles of trail in the entire NPS system". You could also take an excursion boat, that goes different places on different days (see the Greenstone newspaper planning guide), or rent canoes for half a day and explore Tobin Harbor and hike up to Lookout Louise. Again though, stay in your patrols or at least patrol numbers for day activities. The rangers sometimes do a tour of the immediate RH area and take you to some of the historic things you would not necessarily notice on your own (America dock, historic lodge, CCC Monument, etc) - good if you have blisters and don't want to hike too far. There may be a ranger talk in the afternoon, and there is usually an evening ranger talk in the auditorium. Plus, showers and laundry if needed.

Keep asking your questions!

[torpified]

-Torpified, do you recommend these group sites or was it just averaging days? Are there any groups sites that are just not worth staying at? I was looking at changing the 9.7m day, so we would have more time at the mine and fire watch.

just linking camps into an itinerary consistent with your typical mileages! Because I either go solo on or with just Mr torpified, I don't have any intelligence about group sites.

[Kees]

Again thanks for all the help, we have laid out a trip and have some rough dates, mostly around the 4th of July.
I see you should put in for permits at the first of the year, there are other reservations to be maid also, ferry etc.

Now the big question...
Do we think the island will be open next year?

[treeplanter]

.....Now the big question...
Do we think the island will be open next year?

No way we can answer that question right now. Ask again next May.

[Bobcat1]

Might want to plan a back-up hiking location that your group could drive to. Keep in mind that Isle Royale National Park did not close in 2020. Ferry service was suspended because of the need for social distancing etc.

Possible alternates in the region: Superior Hiking Trail, Pictured Rocks, Porcupine Mountains. Your preparations for hiking would be similar, climate similar, etc. Last I knew, Superior Hiking Trail did not take reservations for campsites.

[Kees]

Thanks, we are crossing our fingers and going to plan the trip and hope the ferries are running. Seaplanes will be just to expensive for 10 of us, looks like $300+ per person. I tried calling to see if they do group or have scout rates, have not heard back.

Another dumb question has come up though, do you hang bear bags nightly on the island? In the BWCA we did bear canoes.
Have to work up the weight for 3 meals a day x10 people x5.5 days now, if we don't have to carry rope and bear bag that helps.

thanks again,

[Ingo]

Another dumb question has come up though, do you hang bear bags nightly on the island? In the BWCA we did bear canoes.
Have to work up the weight for 3 meals a day x10 people x5.5 days now, if we don't have to carry rope and bear bag that helps.

Seems odd, but keep food in the tent or shelter. Biggest issues are squirrels (hanging doesn't help) and mice. Had a squirrel chew threw netting, a canvas pack, and a ziplock to get to trail mix--now I'm careful to keep the food in the middle of the tent when I'm not around. But if you hang it you may as well be putting a flashing neon "Diner" sign for the squirrels over it. Also had a mouse get into trail mix in a shelter--it was just laying on the floor in a ziplock. But no major harm in either case. Double bagging is suggested, however.